Which League Was Better: WUSA or WPS?
Both leagues lasted three years. I am curious to know which you think was a better league, the WUSA (2001-2003) or WPS (2009-2011).
I am going to say that the WUSA was better. The talent and the competition were more interesting to me.
Dave
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on -
Sebastian -- you have a lot of facts at your finger tips. Please can you help us?
1. Do you have some figures for what fully professional players in Europe earn roughly?
-- Someone like Lotta Schelin, Necib, Renard or Bompastor in France or a couple of the German players who got beaten, and maybe compare it with a semi-pro league that is popular for foreigners to play in like Sweden´s. The leagues in the British Isles have very few non British players but maybe some figures from there too? Did the French ladies get any bonuses for winning the CL?
2. The figures of $70 000, $50 000 and $30 000 sound like an awful lot. How many months do they have to play for the National team? Three months a year?
-- FIFA/UEFA etc have directives about how players must be made available for men´s and ladies´national teams for competitions to be fair. All National managers grumble about getting players released for training. German men´s top league having a few teams less than the other major leagues have it a bit easier.
3. The USA is a huge country, even when you do not include the two states of Alaska and Hawaii. Well understood, the ultimate goal is to have one single league for USA. Below that top Allamerican, lesser divisions will needs be regionalised. However, before USA´s LPF enters into that Nirvana, need not the top tier also be regionalised until it is well established?
Sebastian Kanty said:1. semi-pro league.
2. a big NO to players in the USWNT, to skip regular games in the league. it's ok, for a game or two, but the US team have some ridiculous demands. if a team signs a player for its rooster, they want the player to be eligible to play the games in the leagues schedule. if you get a great player like alex morgan, you do want her to play for the team and win the title. that's not gonna happen if the call for the WNT keeps ringing 6-8 times a year. and the us camps seems to be far more and longer than other countries. this might work in a league with only 6 teams, but even if it does, those teams misses their players and the fans do to. (example, Christen Press got a call yet again from the US to go to another assembly with the USWNT, but Göteborg FC said no. If they would have agreed, she would again miss atleast a league game and a cup game. That would mean that she would have missed 1/3 of the games to this date. The club/team pays her to play for them, and if the schedule and position in the league allows it they allow her to attend camps and miss games. if Christen would have attended the assembly, she would have only been in sweden for 2,5 weeks since her last camp in the us.
3. promotion for the league/team in tv/radio and/or internet (to "drag" people to the stadiums)
4. sponsors, if you have an attendance, you will have sponsors...so no 3 plays a big role in achieving no 4.
as i have read and understood it, 5 players in the USWNT gets 70,000$, 10 players gets 50,000$, and the rest will get about 30,000$ and less when they have a contract with US Soccer. these figures are from last year i think, don't remember where i read it. say wambach gets 70K, she won't mind missing some games in magicjack, since she already has 70K in the bank. but what does it do to the team and league...i would say it suffers, because the league lacks one the big poster-names, and that will make an impact on attendance.
as a sidenote, when the swedish wnt was in germany, they got 140 SEK a day, that's 19,5$ a day. they are only paid for the days they are in the national team, not on year basis. so in sweden it doesn't pay to miss out league games, the reward is only the honor for representing your country, besides a measily ~20 bucks..
---- well i'm drunk and sleapy now...see ya'll later.. ----
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Permalink Reply by Sebastian Kanty on -
i guess that us soccer decides how often they have the need of you, and how many games you will play. i doubt that they have a fixed number of days/months, perhaps there is a clause in the contract about x number of days you should be available for the uswnt. canada has a similar approach, with players signed with the national soccer fed. yes, fifa has rules about dates and such, fifa has a pdf on their homepage somewhere. if you would have this list, and compare it to the uswnt camps and games, you would see that many of the camps have nothing in common with the dates. the dates are often 1-2 here and there for qualification, friendlies and such, so many times when a national team assembles, it has nothing to do with fifa dates. but in the case of usa, they can have a camp with no such dates in sight...Christen Press in Göteborg FC, got a big NO to the question if she could yet again go to a us camp. göteborg said no cause there wasn't any fifa days at the time.
about salaries
have only read that schelin was the most highly paid in france, as late of 2011. don't remember if it was 50.000 € or $. i got this number from the guys at bigsoccer.com in the forums...don't know who it was, maybe member "shlj" as he is french and seems to be the expert in french/english women leagues. besides the 50K, schelin also has one of the best sponsor deals in women soccer with adidas. i gather that many of the uswnt has good deals too...alex morgan, hope solo, megan rapinoe etc has very nice deals with nike as i understand, but how much they earn i do not know. strangely there is very little info about salaries in the womens game.
here are some numbers for swedish players, but that doesn't say that all those figures are from soccer, they could easily make money on the side. those numbers aren't quite new so...
Bäst betalda i Damallsvenskan Namn Lag Taxerad förvärvsinkomst 2010 Lisa Ek Göteborg 696 000 Therese Sjögran Malmö 478 200 Marlene Sjöberg Göteborg 438 800 Madeleine Tegström AIK 412 800 Kristin Hammarström Göteborg 384 700 Susanne Moberg Kristianstad 353 600 Viktoria Forsmark Umeå 352 500 Hedvig Lindahl Kristianstad 345 200 Sonja Fransson Vittsjö 313 800 Caroline Näfver Örebro 311 100
all numbers in swedish currency SEK, those are the only numbers that i know of. biggest clubs in term of money, or the access to it are, Lyon, Frankfurt, Rossiyanka...Tyresö maybe not so much... Lyon's women are closely tied with the mens team, and when you have a sheik in your pocket....Lyon has so much money, that they charted a plane for the cl final, and let every player bring 5 relatives/friends with them...don't know any other club with that much muscle
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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Thank you Sebastian. As one might have suspected, the amounts are not brilliant. Given how cheaply a ladies´ football team can be run, it is a bit surprising that sponsors are not queing up to look after a team. Wonder why?
Sebastian Kanty said:i guess that us soccer decides how often they have the need of you, and how many games you will play. i doubt that they have a fixed number of days/months, perhaps there is a clause in the contract about x number of days you should be available for the uswnt. canada has a similar approach, with players signed with the national soccer fed. yes, fifa has rules about dates and such, fifa has a pdf on their homepage somewhere. if you would have this list, and compare it to the uswnt camps and games, you would see that many of the camps have nothing in common with the dates. the dates are often 1-2 here and there for qualification, friendlies and such, so many times when a national team assembles, it has nothing to do with fifa dates. but in the case of usa, they can have a camp with no such dates in sight...Christen Press in Göteborg FC, got a big NO to the question if she could yet again go to a us camp. göteborg said no cause there wasn't any fifa days at the time.
about salaries
have only read that schelin was the most highly paid in france, as late of 2011. don't remember if it was 50.000 € or $. i got this number from the guys at bigsoccer.com in the forums...don't know who it was, maybe member "shlj" as he is french and seems to be the expert in french/english women leagues. besides the 50K, schelin also has one of the best sponsor deals in women soccer with adidas. i gather that many of the uswnt has good deals too...alex morgan, hope solo, megan rapinoe etc has very nice deals with nike as i understand, but how much they earn i do not know. strangely there is very little info about salaries in the womens game.
here are some numbers for swedish players, but that doesn't say that all those figures are from soccer, they could easily make money on the side. those numbers aren't quite new so...
Bäst betalda i Damallsvenskan Namn Lag Taxerad förvärvsinkomst 2010 Lisa Ek Göteborg 696 000 Therese Sjögran Malmö 478 200 Marlene Sjöberg Göteborg 438 800 Madeleine Tegström AIK 412 800 Kristin Hammarström Göteborg 384 700 Susanne Moberg Kristianstad 353 600 Viktoria Forsmark Umeå 352 500 Hedvig Lindahl Kristianstad 345 200 Sonja Fransson Vittsjö 313 800 Caroline Näfver Örebro 311 100
all numbers in swedish currency SEK, those are the only numbers that i know of. biggest clubs in term of money, or the access to it are, Lyon, Frankfurt, Rossiyanka...Tyresö maybe not so much... Lyon's women are closely tied with the mens team, and when you have a sheik in your pocket....Lyon has so much money, that they charted a plane for the cl final, and let every player bring 5 relatives/friends with them...don't know any other club with that much muscle
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on -
I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
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What is the biggest detriment to this path being chosen LArs?
Lars Breimer said:Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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The number of matches would be one issue. Another might be the travel (unless regionalised).
For example, today a league with 12 teams play 132 home- & away matches. To have the same number of matches in a straight knock-out tournament you need to start either with 256 teams (128 matches). In a league or in the current CL format the teams get two bites at the cherry because they meet each other twice, in which case you could run with 64 teams.
64 teams means on average 1 team per state in the USA. In the FA cup, but not in the ladies´ CL, the stronger teams enter the competition later. In other words, the first couple of rounds weed out the weaker teams and get the less weak a chance to advance. If you start with 128 teams you would have 2 per state + 28 extra.
In the FA cup and also in the ladies´ CL cup, each round is drawn -- ie there is no seeding. The men´s CL is more like a world cup with matches in groups with seeding followed by the knockout phase, all home-&-away. Maybe if the men´s CL was the model it might work for the FALCUS or US-alpha-Cup?
Richard Murray said:What is the biggest detriment to this path being chosen LArs?
Lars Breimer said:Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
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You know my views, definitely regionality, i prefer by state, but I think the idea of yu and others by geosocial region is fine as well
and i referred to the mens CL in my little thesis. I think it definitely has to be like the uefa men's CL. And, those numbers you give can work.
Lars Breimer said:The number of matches would be one issue. Another might be the travel (unless regionalised).
For example, today a league with 12 teams play 132 home- & away matches. To have the same number of matches in a straight knock-out tournament you need to start either with 256 teams (128 matches). In a league or in the current CL format the teams get two bites at the cherry because they meet each other twice, in which case you could run with 64 teams.
64 teams means on average 1 team per state in the USA. In the FA cup, but not in the ladies´ CL, the stronger teams enter the competition later. In other words, the first couple of rounds weed out the weaker teams and get the less weak a chance to advance. If you start with 128 teams you would have 2 per state + 28 extra.
In the FA cup and also in the ladies´ CL cup, each round is drawn -- ie there is no seeding. The men´s CL is more like a world cup with matches in groups with seeding followed by the knockout phase, all home-&-away. Maybe if the men´s CL was the model it might work for the FALCUS or US-alpha-Cup?
Richard Murray said:What is the biggest detriment to this path being chosen LArs?
Lars Breimer said:Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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By state would be best because people associate with their state. On the other hand you have the New England Patriots in the NFL, so the principle of a regional team with a stadium in an outer suburb of the biggest town is established in USA.
The UEFA men´s CL consists of group-play (home & away) followed by a knockout competition also home & away. The final is played as one single match. Teams that get knocked out early go to a second men´s cup (the Europa cup). My criticism of how the men´s CL is organised is that UEFA has sold out to capital and size. So far the ladies CL has not, though there are worrying trends. (There is no second tier UEFA cup for ladies.)
Briefly, in the men´s CL the big country leagues get more slots than the smaller country leagues, and some small countries even have to qualify in. In the old UEFA system there were 3 different cups but essentially countries had (almost) equal entry. Well understood, the small fry disappeared early but, occasionally you got a giant killing, which is what sport needs. Fairness and unpredicatbility.
Marketing and sales want an easy life with big numbers, and since the business of America is business, this plague will be visited on women´s soccer in USA unless the USA FA learns from the NFL. The NHL eventually did but it took them an awfully long time, and they are not quite there yet.
Given how cheap ladies soccer is, it is amazing that there is not a functioning ladies´ league in USA. Maybe the achilles heal is the high quality of the university (college) system?
Richard Murray said:You know my views, definitely regionality, i prefer by state, but I think the idea of yu and others by geosocial region is fine as well
and i referred to the mens CL in my little thesis. I think it definitely has to be like the uefa men's CL. And, those numbers you give can work.
Lars Breimer said:The number of matches would be one issue. Another might be the travel (unless regionalised).
For example, today a league with 12 teams play 132 home- & away matches. To have the same number of matches in a straight knock-out tournament you need to start either with 256 teams (128 matches). In a league or in the current CL format the teams get two bites at the cherry because they meet each other twice, in which case you could run with 64 teams.
64 teams means on average 1 team per state in the USA. In the FA cup, but not in the ladies´ CL, the stronger teams enter the competition later. In other words, the first couple of rounds weed out the weaker teams and get the less weak a chance to advance. If you start with 128 teams you would have 2 per state + 28 extra.
In the FA cup and also in the ladies´ CL cup, each round is drawn -- ie there is no seeding. The men´s CL is more like a world cup with matches in groups with seeding followed by the knockout phase, all home-&-away. Maybe if the men´s CL was the model it might work for the FALCUS or US-alpha-Cup?
Richard Murray said:What is the biggest detriment to this path being chosen LArs?
Lars Breimer said:Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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Richard, Sebastian and all -- This is a business that the USA should be dominating, yet isn´t! Why not?
On the other hand, the USA ought to be dominating ski-shooting (aka biathlon) and are not. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Ladies! Get your dander up!! What is wrong?
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
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We agree state based is best but for small states or certain regions region is best.
I have no problem with the CL's changes over the years. Yes, it is unfair but on the other hand, people want to see the best and giving advantages to the best still doesnt undermine unpredictability, Real and Barca were not in the final. I have no problem with the womens CL mirroring the mens, I would say, women need instead of a second tier in UEFA, a different tournament. My problem with the CL and the Europa is that they collide. For women's soccer the uefa womens CL should be for the top teams in the league tables and they should have a womens euro for the cup tournament champions and runners up. The womens CL and womens Euro can be the same time of the week and represent the difference between teams strong in league seasons[CL] and teams strong in cup tournaments[EUro] it would also make a matchup of the champions to start the uefa season honest as the members of the compeititon would be from two different pathways completely. The men make the mistake of letting the losers in the UEFA CL go into the euro and letting the league tables decide who goes into the euro. LEague and cup play are different. the women can use the UEFA womens CL to let the best in league have it out, but they can use a womens euro to focus on cup play seperately.
Lars Breimer said:By state would be best because people associate with their state. On the other hand you have the New England Patriots in the NFL, so the principle of a regional team with a stadium in an outer suburb of the biggest town is established in USA.
The UEFA men´s CL consists of group-play (home & away) followed by a knockout competition also home & away. The final is played as one single match. Teams that get knocked out early go to a second men´s cup (the Europa cup). My criticism of how the men´s CL is organised is that UEFA has sold out to capital and size. So far the ladies CL has not, though there are worrying trends. (There is no second tier UEFA cup for ladies.)
Briefly, in the men´s CL the big country leagues get more slots than the smaller country leagues, and some small countries even have to qualify in. In the old UEFA system there were 3 different cups but essentially countries had (almost) equal entry. Well understood, the small fry disappeared early but, occasionally you got a giant killing, which is what sport needs. Fairness and unpredicatbility.
Marketing and sales want an easy life with big numbers, and since the business of America is business, this plague will be visited on women´s soccer in USA unless the USA FA learns from the NFL. The NHL eventually did but it took them an awfully long time, and they are not quite there yet.
Given how cheap ladies soccer is, it is amazing that there is not a functioning ladies´ league in USA. Maybe the achilles heal is the high quality of the university (college) system?
Richard Murray said:You know my views, definitely regionality, i prefer by state, but I think the idea of yu and others by geosocial region is fine as well
and i referred to the mens CL in my little thesis. I think it definitely has to be like the uefa men's CL. And, those numbers you give can work.
Lars Breimer said:The number of matches would be one issue. Another might be the travel (unless regionalised).
For example, today a league with 12 teams play 132 home- & away matches. To have the same number of matches in a straight knock-out tournament you need to start either with 256 teams (128 matches). In a league or in the current CL format the teams get two bites at the cherry because they meet each other twice, in which case you could run with 64 teams.
64 teams means on average 1 team per state in the USA. In the FA cup, but not in the ladies´ CL, the stronger teams enter the competition later. In other words, the first couple of rounds weed out the weaker teams and get the less weak a chance to advance. If you start with 128 teams you would have 2 per state + 28 extra.
In the FA cup and also in the ladies´ CL cup, each round is drawn -- ie there is no seeding. The men´s CL is more like a world cup with matches in groups with seeding followed by the knockout phase, all home-&-away. Maybe if the men´s CL was the model it might work for the FALCUS or US-alpha-Cup?
Richard Murray said:What is the biggest detriment to this path being chosen LArs?
Lars Breimer said:Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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The award of the 2015 world cup to Canada fits with a strategy by FIFA (and UEFA) to get women´s professional soccer up and running again in USA. The opportunity for young ladies to come and play in USA and for a large pool of north-American ladies being available to go and play abroad, seems fundamental to the success of ladies soccer in whatever country. Verily, ladies´ football could become a whole new aspect of international interaction and relationships. The US State Department ought to see this opportunity and get in on the act.
Women Soccer United can help by kicking around ideas how to build on the ruins of previous attempts and get ladies´ professional soccer going in USA. An enormous number of girls in America play soccer as they grow up, which is not the case in other countries, so the pool of talent is there. Maybe if each person could provide one single idea or suggestion that they would consider most important for success, then something might emerge. As the readers and commentators in this forum watch women´s soccer matches, what strikes them as the missing ingredient or something which seems to make a difference. Each one will have their take on the issue and there are no right or wrong ideas at this stage.
To make it more real. Imagine that you are sitting next to a very wealthy person at dinner who says: “I am thinking of investing in women´s soccer in USA. With what should I start? Please give me one or two, but not twenty, pointers!”
Richard Murray said:We agree state based is best but for small states or certain regions region is best.
I have no problem with the CL's changes over the years. Yes, it is unfair but on the other hand, people want to see the best and giving advantages to the best still doesnt undermine unpredictability, Real and Barca were not in the final. I have no problem with the womens CL mirroring the mens, I would say, women need instead of a second tier in UEFA, a different tournament. My problem with the CL and the Europa is that they collide. For women's soccer the uefa womens CL should be for the top teams in the league tables and they should have a womens euro for the cup tournament champions and runners up. The womens CL and womens Euro can be the same time of the week and represent the difference between teams strong in league seasons[CL] and teams strong in cup tournaments[EUro] it would also make a matchup of the champions to start the uefa season honest as the members of the compeititon would be from two different pathways completely. The men make the mistake of letting the losers in the UEFA CL go into the euro and letting the league tables decide who goes into the euro. LEague and cup play are different. the women can use the UEFA womens CL to let the best in league have it out, but they can use a womens euro to focus on cup play seperately.
Lars Breimer said:By state would be best because people associate with their state. On the other hand you have the New England Patriots in the NFL, so the principle of a regional team with a stadium in an outer suburb of the biggest town is established in USA.
The UEFA men´s CL consists of group-play (home & away) followed by a knockout competition also home & away. The final is played as one single match. Teams that get knocked out early go to a second men´s cup (the Europa cup). My criticism of how the men´s CL is organised is that UEFA has sold out to capital and size. So far the ladies CL has not, though there are worrying trends. (There is no second tier UEFA cup for ladies.)
Briefly, in the men´s CL the big country leagues get more slots than the smaller country leagues, and some small countries even have to qualify in. In the old UEFA system there were 3 different cups but essentially countries had (almost) equal entry. Well understood, the small fry disappeared early but, occasionally you got a giant killing, which is what sport needs. Fairness and unpredicatbility.
Marketing and sales want an easy life with big numbers, and since the business of America is business, this plague will be visited on women´s soccer in USA unless the USA FA learns from the NFL. The NHL eventually did but it took them an awfully long time, and they are not quite there yet.
Given how cheap ladies soccer is, it is amazing that there is not a functioning ladies´ league in USA. Maybe the achilles heal is the high quality of the university (college) system?
Richard Murray said:You know my views, definitely regionality, i prefer by state, but I think the idea of yu and others by geosocial region is fine as well
and i referred to the mens CL in my little thesis. I think it definitely has to be like the uefa men's CL. And, those numbers you give can work.
Lars Breimer said:The number of matches would be one issue. Another might be the travel (unless regionalised).
For example, today a league with 12 teams play 132 home- & away matches. To have the same number of matches in a straight knock-out tournament you need to start either with 256 teams (128 matches). In a league or in the current CL format the teams get two bites at the cherry because they meet each other twice, in which case you could run with 64 teams.
64 teams means on average 1 team per state in the USA. In the FA cup, but not in the ladies´ CL, the stronger teams enter the competition later. In other words, the first couple of rounds weed out the weaker teams and get the less weak a chance to advance. If you start with 128 teams you would have 2 per state + 28 extra.
In the FA cup and also in the ladies´ CL cup, each round is drawn -- ie there is no seeding. The men´s CL is more like a world cup with matches in groups with seeding followed by the knockout phase, all home-&-away. Maybe if the men´s CL was the model it might work for the FALCUS or US-alpha-Cup?
Richard Murray said:What is the biggest detriment to this path being chosen LArs?
Lars Breimer said:Agreed. An excellent idea. The USALFA Cup. Or, maybe, the FALCUS.
Richard Murray said:I think the next replacement for top tier womens soccer in the USA shouldn't be another leauge but a US Open Cup for Women designed like the UEFA CL, nothing is stopping it from happening now
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