Continuing growth of women's football popularity following the historic 50,212 spectators at the Champions League Final 2012!
Great idea by Lars to start a discussion about how 'we' can build on the exciting event we witnessed last night.
We do not want this to be a 'one off' but more a turning point in ladies' football. We know there is huge interest for the female game and we should be witnessing these figures more often. So what are the factors of such a successful turnout?
I think it has a lot to do with location (Germany), the country already had a very successful world cup last year with amazing attendances. (If I remember from the top of my head the opening match had over 70,000)?
Both teams competing in this year's Champions League final (Lyon and Frankfurt) are from (what seems like) very supporting countries. I saw on Twitter (Sylvain) saying the French Ladies Team were on the front page of the L'equipe yesterday.
It seems the UEFA Champions League Final is returning to London next year. The last time it was in London was in 2011 it was held at Fulham's stadium. According to Wiki the attendance was 14,303 to see Lyon beat Potsdam.
Anyway, I hand this over to you for your thoughts....
© Women's Soccer United
What are your views? Leave your comments below
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Tags: 2012, 212, 50, Champions, Final, League, factors, football, growth, historic, More…
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on -
That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
-
Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on -
Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
-
Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
-
One of the commentors linked a coach's interview where he said the semi pro is the way to go in the USA. I think semi pro is right but still the league form needs to be different. What few like to admit is that at its best WPS was really a regional league. Trying to expand outside of that region, first to atlanta and then the magicjack debacle was the wrong decision. WPS in retrospect should have told USSoccer that it was going to be regional league and tried to encourage the creation of other regional leagues. Outside of the midwestern , southern, and western, experiment teams which failed. All the strongest teams in terms of staying power were in the northeast region of the USA. Most from the mid atlantic region, but boston is from the new england area.
I sinfully use wikepedia to display this as some may not be from the USA northeastern states
my point, the northeast can sustain a top league, plain and simple. WPS and WUSA both prove this. the other regions midwest, south and west should have their own leagues at the least.
As a New Yorker I can tell you soccer can work in this region, but the region must stand alone and stand proud alone. AND, it must have a tournament hint US OPEN CUP to put its champions in. USA doesn't need a single professional league. We have a domestic cup, let that represent the top tier, it works with the UEFA CL.
Lars Breimer said:Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
-
Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
-
Organisation of the game in country and region. A lot speaks for the type of organisation that the NFL pioneered and which the NHL has embraced, at least in part. Briefly, that much of the revenues are held in common with the successful supporting the weaker. The NFL is the nearest USA will come to communism and the formula seems a great one to try for ladies football in whichever country or region.
Sugar daddy clubs? Countries vary in whether a significant number of their feminine clubs are subdivisions of male clubs. A problem with this arrangement, which repeatedly arises, is that as soon as the father ship gets into financial trouble or simply wants to spend money on some new signing, the tap to the ladies´ side is turned down or simply off altogether.
Something completely different? In countries where male sport is not dominated by soccer, would rich teams have a ladies´ football section? On the continent of Europe, the soccer clubs have a long tradition of supporting sports like athletics (track & field) and graeco-roman wrestling. In Russia every oligarch seems to want to own a ladies´ basketball team and many American players go over there to play in their off season.
Local government sponsorship? Can ladies´ soccer be sold as an activity with a positive spin-off such as preventing crime or developing women within the community?
There is nothing new under the sun and no doubt all these amateur suggestions are well familiar to those with any experience in wrestling with the survival of ladies´ football. To travestise that great philosopher Bill Shankly: “Women´s soccer is not a matter of life and death; it is more important than that!”
Richard Murray said:One of the commentors linked a coach's interview where he said the semi pro is the way to go in the USA. I think semi pro is right but still the league form needs to be different. What few like to admit is that at its best WPS was really a regional league. Trying to expand outside of that region, first to atlanta and then the magicjack debacle was the wrong decision. WPS in retrospect should have told USSoccer that it was going to be regional league and tried to encourage the creation of other regional leagues. Outside of the midwestern , southern, and western, experiment teams which failed. All the strongest teams in terms of staying power were in the northeast region of the USA. Most from the mid atlantic region, but boston is from the new england area.
I sinfully use wikepedia to display this as some may not be from the USA northeastern states
my point, the northeast can sustain a top league, plain and simple. WPS and WUSA both prove this. the other regions midwest, south and west should have their own leagues at the least.
As a New Yorker I can tell you soccer can work in this region, but the region must stand alone and stand proud alone. AND, it must have a tournament hint US OPEN CUP to put its champions in. USA doesn't need a single professional league. We have a domestic cup, let that represent the top tier, it works with the UEFA CL.
Lars Breimer said:Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
-
Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
-
we shall see:)
Lars Breimer said:Organisation of the game in country and region. A lot speaks for the type of organisation that the NFL pioneered and which the NHL has embraced, at least in part. Briefly, that much of the revenues are held in common with the successful supporting the weaker. The NFL is the nearest USA will come to communism and the formula seems a great one to try for ladies football in whichever country or region.
Sugar daddy clubs? Countries vary in whether a significant number of their feminine clubs are subdivisions of male clubs. A problem with this arrangement, which repeatedly arises, is that as soon as the father ship gets into financial trouble or simply wants to spend money on some new signing, the tap to the ladies´ side is turned down or simply off altogether.
Something completely different? In countries where male sport is not dominated by soccer, would rich teams have a ladies´ football section? On the continent of Europe, the soccer clubs have a long tradition of supporting sports like athletics (track & field) and graeco-roman wrestling. In Russia every oligarch seems to want to own a ladies´ basketball team and many American players go over there to play in their off season.
Local government sponsorship? Can ladies´ soccer be sold as an activity with a positive spin-off such as preventing crime or developing women within the community?
There is nothing new under the sun and no doubt all these amateur suggestions are well familiar to those with any experience in wrestling with the survival of ladies´ football. To travestise that great philosopher Bill Shankly: “Women´s soccer is not a matter of life and death; it is more important than that!”
Richard Murray said:One of the commentors linked a coach's interview where he said the semi pro is the way to go in the USA. I think semi pro is right but still the league form needs to be different. What few like to admit is that at its best WPS was really a regional league. Trying to expand outside of that region, first to atlanta and then the magicjack debacle was the wrong decision. WPS in retrospect should have told USSoccer that it was going to be regional league and tried to encourage the creation of other regional leagues. Outside of the midwestern , southern, and western, experiment teams which failed. All the strongest teams in terms of staying power were in the northeast region of the USA. Most from the mid atlantic region, but boston is from the new england area.
I sinfully use wikepedia to display this as some may not be from the USA northeastern states
my point, the northeast can sustain a top league, plain and simple. WPS and WUSA both prove this. the other regions midwest, south and west should have their own leagues at the least.
As a New Yorker I can tell you soccer can work in this region, but the region must stand alone and stand proud alone. AND, it must have a tournament hint US OPEN CUP to put its champions in. USA doesn't need a single professional league. We have a domestic cup, let that represent the top tier, it works with the UEFA CL.
Lars Breimer said:Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
-
Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
-
Watching last night´s men´s CL final was an enormous contrast to the ladies´ final. The game was played at a ferocious tempo and outstanding skill and was well refereed. It had all a match needed. The question for ladies´ football becomes: why buy our product when there is another one available?
The (officially) most expensive ticket yesterday was 450€ and the cheapest was 70€ which should be compared to 10€ and 7€, respectively, for the ladies´ final. I cannot find the prices of the TV-rights but one assumes that they were likely at least 10-fold different. Seeing that overheads etc for the final would be about the same, the ladies´ brought in about 5% of the men, possibly less.
It is, of course, the absolute amounts that matter and during the general season, the top men´s clubs are sold out, while the women´s struggle to average 1000 spectators. Taking the ladies´ CL final, if all the players that played + the referee team got an equal share in the gate after overheads, they would have taken home about 10,000€ each. Not a lot of dosh.
What is the business plan for the new "Elite" league in USA? How few paying spectators makes the "Elite" viable? It would be interesting to learn the business assumptions from around various countries.
Richard Murray said:we shall see:)
Lars Breimer said:Organisation of the game in country and region. A lot speaks for the type of organisation that the NFL pioneered and which the NHL has embraced, at least in part. Briefly, that much of the revenues are held in common with the successful supporting the weaker. The NFL is the nearest USA will come to communism and the formula seems a great one to try for ladies football in whichever country or region.
Sugar daddy clubs? Countries vary in whether a significant number of their feminine clubs are subdivisions of male clubs. A problem with this arrangement, which repeatedly arises, is that as soon as the father ship gets into financial trouble or simply wants to spend money on some new signing, the tap to the ladies´ side is turned down or simply off altogether.
Something completely different? In countries where male sport is not dominated by soccer, would rich teams have a ladies´ football section? On the continent of Europe, the soccer clubs have a long tradition of supporting sports like athletics (track & field) and graeco-roman wrestling. In Russia every oligarch seems to want to own a ladies´ basketball team and many American players go over there to play in their off season.
Local government sponsorship? Can ladies´ soccer be sold as an activity with a positive spin-off such as preventing crime or developing women within the community?
There is nothing new under the sun and no doubt all these amateur suggestions are well familiar to those with any experience in wrestling with the survival of ladies´ football. To travestise that great philosopher Bill Shankly: “Women´s soccer is not a matter of life and death; it is more important than that!”
Richard Murray said:One of the commentors linked a coach's interview where he said the semi pro is the way to go in the USA. I think semi pro is right but still the league form needs to be different. What few like to admit is that at its best WPS was really a regional league. Trying to expand outside of that region, first to atlanta and then the magicjack debacle was the wrong decision. WPS in retrospect should have told USSoccer that it was going to be regional league and tried to encourage the creation of other regional leagues. Outside of the midwestern , southern, and western, experiment teams which failed. All the strongest teams in terms of staying power were in the northeast region of the USA. Most from the mid atlantic region, but boston is from the new england area.
I sinfully use wikepedia to display this as some may not be from the USA northeastern states
my point, the northeast can sustain a top league, plain and simple. WPS and WUSA both prove this. the other regions midwest, south and west should have their own leagues at the least.
As a New Yorker I can tell you soccer can work in this region, but the region must stand alone and stand proud alone. AND, it must have a tournament hint US OPEN CUP to put its champions in. USA doesn't need a single professional league. We have a domestic cup, let that represent the top tier, it works with the UEFA CL.
Lars Breimer said:Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
-
Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
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I dont know the overall business plan for the elite league and I think them and w -league hurt each other competing with each other directly with no inter league matches.
Lars Breimer said:Watching last night´s men´s CL final was an enormous contrast to the ladies´ final. The game was played at a ferocious tempo and outstanding skill and was well refereed. It had all a match needed. The question for ladies´ football becomes: why buy our product when there is another one available?
The (officially) most expensive ticket yesterday was 450€ and the cheapest was 70€ which should be compared to 10€ and 7€, respectively, for the ladies´ final. I cannot find the prices of the TV-rights but one assumes that they were likely at least 10-fold different. Seeing that overheads etc for the final would be about the same, the ladies´ brought in about 5% of the men, possibly less.
It is, of course, the absolute amounts that matter and during the general season, the top men´s clubs are sold out, while the women´s struggle to average 1000 spectators. Taking the ladies´ CL final, if all the players that played + the referee team got an equal share in the gate after overheads, they would have taken home about 10,000€ each. Not a lot of dosh.
What is the business plan for the new "Elite" league in USA? How few paying spectators makes the "Elite" viable? It would be interesting to learn the business assumptions from around various countries.
Richard Murray said:we shall see:)
Lars Breimer said:Organisation of the game in country and region. A lot speaks for the type of organisation that the NFL pioneered and which the NHL has embraced, at least in part. Briefly, that much of the revenues are held in common with the successful supporting the weaker. The NFL is the nearest USA will come to communism and the formula seems a great one to try for ladies football in whichever country or region.
Sugar daddy clubs? Countries vary in whether a significant number of their feminine clubs are subdivisions of male clubs. A problem with this arrangement, which repeatedly arises, is that as soon as the father ship gets into financial trouble or simply wants to spend money on some new signing, the tap to the ladies´ side is turned down or simply off altogether.
Something completely different? In countries where male sport is not dominated by soccer, would rich teams have a ladies´ football section? On the continent of Europe, the soccer clubs have a long tradition of supporting sports like athletics (track & field) and graeco-roman wrestling. In Russia every oligarch seems to want to own a ladies´ basketball team and many American players go over there to play in their off season.
Local government sponsorship? Can ladies´ soccer be sold as an activity with a positive spin-off such as preventing crime or developing women within the community?
There is nothing new under the sun and no doubt all these amateur suggestions are well familiar to those with any experience in wrestling with the survival of ladies´ football. To travestise that great philosopher Bill Shankly: “Women´s soccer is not a matter of life and death; it is more important than that!”
Richard Murray said:One of the commentors linked a coach's interview where he said the semi pro is the way to go in the USA. I think semi pro is right but still the league form needs to be different. What few like to admit is that at its best WPS was really a regional league. Trying to expand outside of that region, first to atlanta and then the magicjack debacle was the wrong decision. WPS in retrospect should have told USSoccer that it was going to be regional league and tried to encourage the creation of other regional leagues. Outside of the midwestern , southern, and western, experiment teams which failed. All the strongest teams in terms of staying power were in the northeast region of the USA. Most from the mid atlantic region, but boston is from the new england area.
I sinfully use wikepedia to display this as some may not be from the USA northeastern states
my point, the northeast can sustain a top league, plain and simple. WPS and WUSA both prove this. the other regions midwest, south and west should have their own leagues at the least.
As a New Yorker I can tell you soccer can work in this region, but the region must stand alone and stand proud alone. AND, it must have a tournament hint US OPEN CUP to put its champions in. USA doesn't need a single professional league. We have a domestic cup, let that represent the top tier, it works with the UEFA CL.
Lars Breimer said:Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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Makes one think of expressions like -- "This sport ain´t big enough for the both of us" and "Make my day, punkette!".
The USA should be dominating ladies´ football internationally, the way that the NHL (and NBA) do their sports. A healthy dose of realism and humility would not come amiss. Japan are the World Champions and Sweden defeated the USA in the group game.
Richard Murray said:I dont know the overall business plan for the elite league and I think them and w -league hurt each other competing with each other directly with no inter league matches.
Lars Breimer said:Watching last night´s men´s CL final was an enormous contrast to the ladies´ final. The game was played at a ferocious tempo and outstanding skill and was well refereed. It had all a match needed. The question for ladies´ football becomes: why buy our product when there is another one available?
The (officially) most expensive ticket yesterday was 450€ and the cheapest was 70€ which should be compared to 10€ and 7€, respectively, for the ladies´ final. I cannot find the prices of the TV-rights but one assumes that they were likely at least 10-fold different. Seeing that overheads etc for the final would be about the same, the ladies´ brought in about 5% of the men, possibly less.
It is, of course, the absolute amounts that matter and during the general season, the top men´s clubs are sold out, while the women´s struggle to average 1000 spectators. Taking the ladies´ CL final, if all the players that played + the referee team got an equal share in the gate after overheads, they would have taken home about 10,000€ each. Not a lot of dosh.
What is the business plan for the new "Elite" league in USA? How few paying spectators makes the "Elite" viable? It would be interesting to learn the business assumptions from around various countries.
Richard Murray said:we shall see:)
Lars Breimer said:Organisation of the game in country and region. A lot speaks for the type of organisation that the NFL pioneered and which the NHL has embraced, at least in part. Briefly, that much of the revenues are held in common with the successful supporting the weaker. The NFL is the nearest USA will come to communism and the formula seems a great one to try for ladies football in whichever country or region.
Sugar daddy clubs? Countries vary in whether a significant number of their feminine clubs are subdivisions of male clubs. A problem with this arrangement, which repeatedly arises, is that as soon as the father ship gets into financial trouble or simply wants to spend money on some new signing, the tap to the ladies´ side is turned down or simply off altogether.
Something completely different? In countries where male sport is not dominated by soccer, would rich teams have a ladies´ football section? On the continent of Europe, the soccer clubs have a long tradition of supporting sports like athletics (track & field) and graeco-roman wrestling. In Russia every oligarch seems to want to own a ladies´ basketball team and many American players go over there to play in their off season.
Local government sponsorship? Can ladies´ soccer be sold as an activity with a positive spin-off such as preventing crime or developing women within the community?
There is nothing new under the sun and no doubt all these amateur suggestions are well familiar to those with any experience in wrestling with the survival of ladies´ football. To travestise that great philosopher Bill Shankly: “Women´s soccer is not a matter of life and death; it is more important than that!”
Richard Murray said:One of the commentors linked a coach's interview where he said the semi pro is the way to go in the USA. I think semi pro is right but still the league form needs to be different. What few like to admit is that at its best WPS was really a regional league. Trying to expand outside of that region, first to atlanta and then the magicjack debacle was the wrong decision. WPS in retrospect should have told USSoccer that it was going to be regional league and tried to encourage the creation of other regional leagues. Outside of the midwestern , southern, and western, experiment teams which failed. All the strongest teams in terms of staying power were in the northeast region of the USA. Most from the mid atlantic region, but boston is from the new england area.
I sinfully use wikepedia to display this as some may not be from the USA northeastern states
my point, the northeast can sustain a top league, plain and simple. WPS and WUSA both prove this. the other regions midwest, south and west should have their own leagues at the least.
As a New Yorker I can tell you soccer can work in this region, but the region must stand alone and stand proud alone. AND, it must have a tournament hint US OPEN CUP to put its champions in. USA doesn't need a single professional league. We have a domestic cup, let that represent the top tier, it works with the UEFA CL.
Lars Breimer said:Bums on seats. Fans are needed for sponsors to open their wallets, at least the promise of spectators.
Excitement, skill and speed attract spectators. Lyon and Frankfurt are professional teams. What is the budget in your country for this? 50 000 at a Cup final is marvellous but how many at home matches does the budget demand? 5000 pr match?
Semi-amateurs? Though on the men´s side it is no longer possible to win the big cups with semi-amateurs like Sven-Göran Eriksson did with IFK Göteborg 30 years ago, nevetheless semi-amateur teams may be possible, or a transition phase, for the ladies´ game.
Define the market. Who are the spectators? Segment it and target it. In Europe it is obvious that the spectators are not other women. Women are not loyal to their sisters. Is this a family outing? Mum, dad and the kids and the family dogs? But why should they go to see women kick a soccer ball aorund, instead of baseball?
Do not buy foreign mercenaries. If buy foreign, get managers and coaches and specialist coaches. Homegrown players trained by experienced staff.
Details of organisation obviously will differ between countries. After all, many states in USA are as populous as European countries and others much larger to boot. Maybe a knockout competiton with 128 teams = 2 per state + 28 wild cards. In the FA cup, the top teams only enter after a few rounds. Leagues local as our learned friend Richard suggests.
Who might the sponsors be? Why should someone sponsor women playing soccer? Most people who decide corporate spending are men. Why should a middleaged chap sign up for 3 years?
Body painting aside, remember that this is ladies football. Agreed, it is a struggle for existance and only the best get to the top of the greasy pole. Terms like lady may seem quaint in today´s language – but, remember that the LPGA is named the LPGA – while the French talk about the feminine football, and though soccer is a game for gentlemen played by thugs while rugger is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, nevertheless the punters are coming to see ladies play soccer.
Richard Murray said:That is true, they were on the front page of L'equip. That is a big sign and OL earned it the hard way. But, OL is the prime example at club level. They first and foremost said the team is totally professional, none of this amateur nonsense. Second, they worked on their product with local talent.
third they had a consistent albeit lesser advertised league to work in.
Fourth, they had a international tournament to grow into.
The first and second part can be accomplished near everywhere, but the third and fourth parts are not so easy.
If I had enough money and said I will mimick OL and have a totally professional club and work on local talent. Lets say a team in my home state of NY. I dont have division 1 to work with. I have W-league and WPSL elite. do you know how many people play soccer in NY state, men and women. Where is our league? If New York State had a league, NYC Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers could all support at least one team and NYC could support how many teams. London has spurs, chelsea, arsenal, qpr, fulham, leyton orient, etc. NYC has no team in its boundaries. at the top 2 levels to my knowledge, maybe one recently in. FCNY, or something.
the league structure is the key, get the league structure right and the rest will follow. But USSoccer's demand of the atlantic to pacific idea of league is the killer.
being positive, maybe US Open Cup for women can be extended and treated like a league by USSoccer. Lets stop trying to make a top tier in the USA and let the domestic cup be the top tier. The best teams will do better in it, regardless of the league whether WPSL elite, w-league or etc.
for south america , the state leagues need to have womens leagues and the Brazil cup can be the countrywide tournament, but they need investors.
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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I started this discussion and so it falls on me to bury it? Today KIF Örebro hosted a critical match at home against the venerable club Umeå. It was a match in the Swedish Cup, a competition Örebro won 2 seasons ago and one that Umeå dominated for several years.
Today was Swedish Flag Day, that is it counts as Sweden´s national day, so the flags are flown and the trams (street cars) and buses have little Swedish flags on them. It is a public holiday. Sweden is not very nationalistic, unlike other countries who take it very seriously indeed.
No entry was charged (someone sponsored the whole match) and the weather was glorious in the afternoon, the morning having been a bit chilly. A grand total of 553 people turned out. 553 in a city of about 100 000 inhabitants, ca 50 000 of whom are women, so the attendance was just >1% of the women but many in the stands were of the male sex.
Umeå scored in the dying seconds of full time. The spectators were getting ready for extra time and, possibly, penalties.
The match was FREE. It was a public holiday midweek. Tomorrow is a working day in Sweden, as is Friday. The turnout was APPALLING. It was not just low, it was NO better than for games where the charge at the gate is 100 kr ( $15 or 11€). How can Sweden run ladies soccer under such circumstances? This is insane.
Good night and good luck!
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
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lets be honest, Sweden is like wisconsin in comparison to england, france, germany. The swedish people see their early entry and focus on the womans game has been lost at the club level , and ti will not be gained back.
Lars Breimer said:I started this discussion and so it falls on me to bury it? Today KIF Örebro hosted a critical match at home against the venerable club Umeå. It was a match in the Swedish Cup, a competition Örebro won 2 seasons ago and one that Umeå dominated for several years.
Today was Swedish Flag Day, that is it counts as Sweden´s national day, so the flags are flown and the trams (street cars) and buses have little Swedish flags on them. It is a public holiday. Sweden is not very nationalistic, unlike other countries who take it very seriously indeed.
No entry was charged (someone sponsored the whole match) and the weather was glorious in the afternoon, the morning having been a bit chilly. A grand total of 553 people turned out. 553 in a city of about 100 000 inhabitants, ca 50 000 of whom are women, so the attendance was just >1% of the women but many in the stands were of the male sex.
Umeå scored in the dying seconds of full time. The spectators were getting ready for extra time and, possibly, penalties.
The match was FREE. It was a public holiday midweek. Tomorrow is a working day in Sweden, as is Friday. The turnout was APPALLING. It was not just low, it was NO better than for games where the charge at the gate is 100 kr ( $15 or 11€). How can Sweden run ladies soccer under such circumstances? This is insane.
Good night and good luck!
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Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on
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Verily verily. The fate of Swedish ladies´ football mirrors their men´s a generation later.
Provided UEFA can structure ladies´ soccer in an equitable manner all will be well. It will be like the NHL and Europe in icehockey or like European men´s soccer was 30 years ago. The girls with outstanding talent from the smaller (poorer?) European countries will be bought by teams in the richer leagues and the carrot of a professional contract will be the spur that would drive the domestic games in those countries. Lotta Schelin is the girls equivalent to Zlatan, though she earns a fraction of what he does.
To this UEFA must ensure that equal and fair access to the CL continues, unlike in the men´s game where money rules. There must be an immediate reward and a stage on which to strut your stuff.
Roughly two full teams of Swedish players play professionally in the NHL today and they earn top dollar. The Dominican Republic and baseball is another analogy.
Richard Murray said:lets be honest, Sweden is like wisconsin in comparison to england, france, germany. The swedish people see their early entry and focus on the womans game has been lost at the club level , and ti will not be gained back.
Lars Breimer said:I started this discussion and so it falls on me to bury it? Today KIF Örebro hosted a critical match at home against the venerable club Umeå. It was a match in the Swedish Cup, a competition Örebro won 2 seasons ago and one that Umeå dominated for several years.
Today was Swedish Flag Day, that is it counts as Sweden´s national day, so the flags are flown and the trams (street cars) and buses have little Swedish flags on them. It is a public holiday. Sweden is not very nationalistic, unlike other countries who take it very seriously indeed.
No entry was charged (someone sponsored the whole match) and the weather was glorious in the afternoon, the morning having been a bit chilly. A grand total of 553 people turned out. 553 in a city of about 100 000 inhabitants, ca 50 000 of whom are women, so the attendance was just >1% of the women but many in the stands were of the male sex.
Umeå scored in the dying seconds of full time. The spectators were getting ready for extra time and, possibly, penalties.
The match was FREE. It was a public holiday midweek. Tomorrow is a working day in Sweden, as is Friday. The turnout was APPALLING. It was not just low, it was NO better than for games where the charge at the gate is 100 kr ( $15 or 11€). How can Sweden run ladies soccer under such circumstances? This is insane.
Good night and good luck!
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Permalink Reply by Richard Murray on
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I think UEFA is fine going forward, but the USA is in serious design problems.
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