Women’s Olympic Football Past Tournament Winners And Top Goalscorers

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gromit on July 7, 2012 at 11:14

Great post, Asa, thanks !

Brazilian players are regularly amongst the best scorers. I hope to see Christiane at her best like 4 years ago That was not really the case last year in Germany at the WC.

So, who will be the best scorer this time ? Morgan ? Wambach ? Schellin ? Nagasato ? Marta ? Christiane ? Le Sommer ?

The last three OG had the same recipients : Usa, Brazil and Germany. We already know it won't be the same this time, since Germany is not there. Japan is of course the first one to come to mind to take the place.

One question : is Katia, the Brazilian scorer (in 2000), the same Katia who played some days ago with Brazil at the Military World Cup (Brazil finished 3rd ahead of France, and behind South Korea, 2nd and the winner, Germany) ?

Permalink Reply by Women's Soccer United on July 7, 2012 at 11:42

Really interesting read, thanks Asa :)

Good question Gromit... Le Sommer or Morgan I reckon... This may need it's own discussion lol!

Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on July 7, 2012 at 13:57

Verily, verily, Gromit old bean. You beat me to it. I agree with you in principle though some of my observations are slightly different.

USA and Brazil have been in the top 4 in all 4 OG, but Brazil has never won. Thus, having one or more top scorers may not avail much because you can win by 1-0 or on penalties after 2-2.

China vanished after 1996 and Norway after 2000, though in that tournament the Norwegians defeated the USA in spite of USA having most of the play. One Viking nation was replaced by another, Sweden, from which one might conclude that height matters? In 2004 Sweden and Japan shared the fair play award and in 2008 Japan was 4th. Thus the sun has been rising for a while, and winning the World Cup last year was maybe not such a surprise.

The absence of Germany from London is good for the games. Soccer should be a game of flair, not robotics. 

Gromit said:

Great post, Asa, thanks !

Brazilian players are regularly amongst the best scorers. I hope to see Christiane at her best like 4 years ago That was not really the case last year in Germany at the WC.

So, who will be the best scorer this time ? Morgan ? Wambach ? Schellin ? Nagasato ? Marta ? Christiane ? Le Sommer ?

The last three OG had the same recipients : Usa, Brazil and Germany. We already know it won't be the same this time, since Germany is not there. Japan is of course the first one to come to mind to take the place.

One question : is Katia, the Brazilian scorer (in 2000), the same Katia who played some days ago with Brazil at the Military World Cup (Brazil finished 3rd ahead of France, and behind South Korea, 2nd and the winner, Germany) ?

Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on July 7, 2012 at 14:08

I am not persuaded that being the top scorer makes any difference. It is poor consolation when you do not claim the gold and irrelevant if you win the tournament. In the final minutes of the Euro-12, Torres having already scored one goal, passed the ball to his team mate who had also come on as a substitute, instead of shooting himself. Thus that man got to score a goal in his very first match for Spain and in the Euro final. Those that watched the match remember Torres generosity. I cannot remember the name of the scorer!

Having written that tirade, I agree that Morgan is likely to be the top scorer, though Lotta Schelin is the most elegant striker.

Women's Soccer United said:

Really interesting read, thanks Asa :)

Good question Gromit... Le Sommer or Morgan I reckon... This may need it's own discussion lol!

Permalink Reply by Gromit on July 7, 2012 at 14:20

You're tough with the German ladies ;)

Actually, I find their way of playing not very different from the US one. There is clearly a frontier between Anglo-Saxon approach and practice of football (Usa, Germany, England and other British nations, Sweden, Norway, etc.) and the Latin one (France, Brazil, Italy, Spain). Japan belongs clearly to the second group, "helped" maybe by the physical characteristics of its players.

It's exactly the same actually on male football and that's why the new way of playing of the male Mannschafft is a clear revolution. And that's interesting because all that offers difference and there is nothing more boring than to see everybody playing in the same way. The regret of my life was that in 1970 we didn't have a finale between Pelé's Brazil and Beckenbauer's Germany. What a finale it would have been ! Two very opposite styles but both clearly attacking.

Well... I just have to convince myself that I'm right, now, since I wish a finale between France and Japan, ah ah ;)

Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on July 7, 2012 at 14:45

USA, Germany and England play a very physical football. Partly this is tradition and partly, as you observe, one should play to one´s strength and if you are bigger than the other side, take advantage of it. This is even more noticeable in the ladies´ game than the men´s.

Nevertheless, judged by male football, Brazil and Germany are the two most successful countries, narrowly followed by Italy. England and France have won the WC once, on home soil. The Dutch may have been the most inventive, though many consider that Total Football was invented by the great Turin side that perished in an air-crash, but the Dutch are notorious underachievers. Success came late to Spain, but when it came it has been impressive. Portugal are still lookin for the key to the golden door.

The 1970 top game was played at the group stage when Brazil defeated England 1-0 by a goal from Jair and Gordon Banks made a marvellous save from a Pelé header. The QF between Germany and England was interesting from a tactical point of view -- Helmut Schön got the tactics right and Alf Ramsey got them wrong.

Finally, to return to the ladies, last year Sweden beat France by the "Hammer goal" in spite of being one girl down, the most well taken goal of the tournament. Overall, the USA have consistently been best but cannot run a professional league. Seeing that this applies to Brazil also, why are the ladies of these two countries so good?

Permalink Reply by Gromit on July 7, 2012 at 23:07

Yes, that's an interesting question: why USA and Brazil have so many difficulties to keep a proper professional Women league when they are at the top of their discipline (even if Brazil, actually, never won any title like a WC or Olympics) ? But why are they individually so good ? Maybe because, in spite of everything, football (well, soccer over there) is and remains a major sport, if not the number one, amongst the collective feminine sports, highly practised in Universities. And we all know that in US universities, sports can be much more important than studies. That's the same with Athletics or Basket Ball. I'm not a specialist about the question, but it seems to me that the sports practice in US colleges are not very far in intensity and seriousness from what the professional world can offer.

As for the Brazilians... well... Football and Brazil go together, don't they ?, as well as Rugby and New Zealand... I don't believe in this stupid blablabla about "genes". But it is certainly a question of culture, almost of civilisation. When millions and millions of kids, boys or girls, start to play football as soon as they come to life (almost...) and when this football is as important as religion or music, well, is it a surprise to have a continuous flow of great players all over the time ?

As for the 1970 Male WC, Brazil-England was a great match indeed, it could have been a finale. I remember that I let my parents and older sister going without me to the pictures (to watch "Once Upon A Time in The West, that I already saw two times before) because I didn't want to miss the extra-time of Germany-England. I was overjoyed at the end for my idol #1 (Beckenbauer) and my idol #2 (Muller). I was of course destroyed with desperation two days later after what was for me "THE" match of the WC history, Germany-Italy. And Beckenbauer was no longer an idol but a God now for his braveness, after having played such a long time with his arm injured and stuck to his chest...

So, when I say that the young Japanese defender Saki Kumagai makes me think of a feminine version of Beckenbauer, you can measure my compliment ! ; )

Sweden defeated France last year in Germany (with this fantastic goal, yes !) quite easily and deservily. The French were physically exhausted by their SF against USA and they were morally damaged because they had been so close to realize an outstanding result against Solo , Wambach and co. On the contrary, the Swedes were not very tired, because they had been crushed to pieces by the Nadeshikos right from the start... ; )

Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on July 8, 2012 at 13:29

Your point, Gromit my dear hound, about sports at American universities (colleges) -- NCAA -- is well taken and I have set out my own thoughts on it elsewhere. As a consequence, USA will generally be able to field top U-17, U-19, U-20 and, even, excellent senior sides based on this. It should be noted that the top ladies´ soccer universities include several top academic institutions such as Stanford, Duke and North Carolina, and the players for those are American. Consequently, there is no pressure out of national pride to have a professional league.

It is not sooo surprising that USA, Brazil, Germany, China and, more recently, Japan, have been top dogs in ladies´ football. Their populations speak for themselves: USA 300, Brazil 200, Japan 125 and Germany 80 million. Why China with >1000 million have fallen on hard times is not clear, but it seems to be a feature of many of their sports of late. Thus, the fact that Sweden 9, Norway 4 and Denmark 5 million, occasionally do well is reminsicent of the state of men´s soccer 50-70 years ago.

I contend that this Olympic tournament and, possibly, Euro-13 will seal the fate of professional ladies´ football world wide. The world cup in Canada will either issue the last rites or it will be the opening of a new chapter. Let´s make sure it is the latter and not the former.

 

Gromit said:

Yes, that's an interesting question: why USA and Brazil have so many difficulties to keep a proper professional Women league when they are at the top of their discipline (even if Brazil, actually, never won any title like a WC or Olympics) ? But why are they individually so good ? Maybe because, in spite of everything, football (well, soccer over there) is and remains a major sport, if not the number one, amongst the collective feminine sports, highly practised in Universities. And we all know that in US universities, sports can be much more important than studies. That's the same with Athletics or Basket Ball. I'm not a specialist about the question, but it seems to me that the sports practice in US colleges are not very far in intensity and seriousness from what the professional world can offer.

As for the Brazilians... well... Football and Brazil go together, don't they ?, as well as Rugby and New Zealand... I don't believe in this stupid blablabla about "genes". But it is certainly a question of culture, almost of civilisation. When millions and millions of kids, boys or girls, start to play football as soon as they come to life (almost...) and when this football is as important as religion or music, well, is it a surprise to have a continuous flow of great players all over the time ?

As for the 1970 Male WC, Brazil-England was a great match indeed, it could have been a finale. I remember that I let my parents and older sister going without me to the pictures (to watch "Once Upon A Time in The West, that I already saw two times before) because I didn't want to miss the extra-time of Germany-England. I was overjoyed at the end for my idol #1 (Beckenbauer) and my idol #2 (Muller). I was of course destroyed with desperation two days later after what was for me "THE" match of the WC history, Germany-Italy. And Beckenbauer was no longer an idol but a God now for his braveness, after having played such a long time with his arm injured and stuck to his chest...

So, when I say that the young Japanese defender Saki Kumagai makes me think of a feminine version of Beckenbauer, you can measure my compliment ! ; )

Sweden defeated France last year in Germany (with this fantastic goal, yes !) quite easily and deservily. The French were physically exhausted by their SF against USA and they were morally damaged because they had been so close to realize an outstanding result against Solo , Wambach and co. On the contrary, the Swedes were not very tired, because they had been crushed to pieces by the Nadeshikos right from the start... ; )

Permalink Reply by Gromit on July 8, 2012 at 22:37

I agree with you about everything, dear Lars. But I can't really see the link - even if it seems obvious at first sight - between the population number and the quality of football teams. Neither in history nor today, if you extend the problem to both Men and Women Football.

In the past, as long as Men football is concerned, one of the smallest country in South-America - Uruguay - dominated the world between 1924 (at least) and 1950. Then, it was Hungary from 1949 until 1956. The biggest countries (China, India, Usa) never ever shone. The only exception, if I want to be nice, was USSR who was more or less regularly present at the top from 1958 to 1988. Those same big countries are still not at the top today. I could add Nigeria or Japan. Without talking of Indonesia…

On the contrary, after Uruguay and Hungary, we saw countries like the Netherlands or Denmark (ok, briefly for this last one…) being at the top. Germany has always been a prominent football country and Brazil is the real football country (even in it was invented in England). Italy, France or Spain are not big countries in term of population.

It happens that, as far as Women Football is concerned, USA, Japan and… of course Brazil (all real big countries) and China yesterday (as you took notice, why this team has disappeared from the top ?) lead the ball or the dance, as you want. So, the question is maybe : why such a difference between Men and Women Football in every country ? Why is it so powerful (in terms of results) in Usa for the girls and not for the boys ? In Japan for the Nadeshiko and not for the Samouraï ? In Italy or Spain for the men and not for the women ? In Sweden or Norway for the ladies and not for the gentlemen (if Ibrahamovic can be seen as a gentleman of course, I'm not sure… ; ). Maybe, the answers are hidden in the questions.

In France, most of people grown enthusiastic for the Women team because they appeared - in the media - right after Les Bleus's Knysna disaster at the 2010 WC. Maybe that people, all over the world are unable to have a great men and a great women team at the same time. It's one or the other.

Except in Brazil and Germany of course… But is it a surprise ?

Let's just add that if in Germany feminine football has a real popular support (and an important league), that is not the case in Brazil, in spite of the permanent skill of their players and their good result (but no victory in tournament).

Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on July 9, 2012 at 7:34

Thank you for you kind words, Gromit my learned friend. Much obliged.  Support for ladies´ football in German has been inching up while in Sweden it has fallen. Nevertheless, attendances (both average and peak) in Germany this past season were less than in Sweden at its peak about 7-9 years ago.  Briefly, for Germany the mean and median number of spectators, respecyively, have been:

2011/12 … 1121 … 715

2010/11 …   836 … 613

2009/10 …   766 … 617

2008/09 …   811 … 675

2007/08 …   887 … 653

2006/07 …   733 … 632

2005/06 …   582 … 485

2004/05 …   503 … 420

2003/04 …   385 … 385

This should be compared with means of about 1130 in 2004, with 920 in 2003 and 1110 in 2005 for Sweden.

 

The German 2011/12 season followed immediately after the World Cup. So far this year in Sweden, who play a summer season like England, the mean and median attendances are 850 and 650, respectively.

 

What are the figures for French teams?  Do you know?

 

Your point about ladies´ football flourishing in absence of good men´s is well taken. A couple of the legendary German men´s teams like Bayern Munich and Hamburg SV have low crowds at their ladies´ matches; these average figures are driven by Frankfurt and Potsdam, which are women´s teams. Likewise, in Sweden, the top attendances are for teams which concertrate on ladies´ soccer.  

 

Nevertheless, given that Germany has a population ca 9x that of Sweden and many of its cities are much larger than those of Sweden, the German figures are not good.

 

The Japanese men´s team have been much better paid and enjoy better travel than their ladies. Indeed, after winning the World Cup it was the Kirin Brewery who paid the Japanes ladies a bonus out of their own pockets. The Japanese Football Assoc had not planned to do so but was shamed into providing something.

 

Maybe the greater international success of ladies´ soccer relates to less difference in size between Japanese ladies and say USA or Germans than men? Maybe it is another example of the fight in the dog rather than the dog in the fight that matters. No-one has explained why the Americans collapsed in the penalty shoot out while the Japanese stayed focussed, including their goal keeper. What went wrong?

 

In the final analysis, as Richard Murray and I have chewed over, ladies´ soccer needs a healthy, financially sound American ladies´ league to flourish.

Permalink Reply by Gromit on July 9, 2012 at 22:16

I can bring you a bit of an answer, old pal, while eating Swedish Wasa bread (hmm... can we call that "bread" ?) with a good piece of Sbrinz, thanks to CHR$'s blog "Ni buts, ni soumises".

 

This season, the global attendances was three times what it was in 2010. Of course, it varies a lot from a match to another. In 2010, the record was PSG-Juvisy at the Parc des Princes with nearly 6 000 people.

This year, a dozen of matches had seen more than 2000 people (Cup included). If you take the last decade before this year, you will find only five matches reaching this peak. So, we really can speak of an serious improvement.

The fact that the male professional stadiums are more commonly used helps a lot.

This is the compilation of the 10 best attendances in national competition :

D1 2011-2012  Guingamp : Guingamp-Lyon - 12 263

Coupe de France 2011-2012 Bourges :   Montpellier-Lyon - 7 200

D1 2011-2012  Bondoufle : Juvisy-Lyon - 7 000

D1 2009-2010  Paris (Parc des Princes) : PSG-Juvisy  - 5 892

CdF 2008-2009 Lyon : Le Mans-Montpellier - 4 671

D1 2011-2012   Lyon : Lyon-PSG  - 4 500

CdF 2009-2010 Bondoufle : PSG-Montpellier - 4 200

D1 2011-2012  Créteil : PSG-Lyon - 3 500

D1 2011-2012     Lyon : Lyon-Juvisy - 3 434

Of course, Lyon is a regular attraction but not so much if you compare with the attendances in French male football in which Marseille (OM) has not only all the best crowds at home (not this year since the stadium is in refection with a reduced capacity) but always away. Marseille supporters travel a lot and there are OM's club of supporters absolutely everywhere in France (L'OM has been the most popular club in France for more than 20 years, even during the long reign of 7 years of Lyon which never succeeded in becoming a popular team in the rest of France).

I suppose that when Marseille feminine football section will reach the first league (at the end of nex year ?), it can change a lot of things. Wait and see... particularly if Louisa Necib could have the good idea to go back and play for her birth-city place...

Here is a very interesting chart with the attendances average in French championship since 2004. Yes, I put it at the end on purpose, just to check if you read this post till the end ; )

Lars Breimer said:

What are the figures for French teams?  Do you know?

Permalink Reply by 2xehxtxemyk65 on July 9, 2012 at 22:43

"I put the graph at the end on purpose, just to check if you read this post till the end ; )".  Verily, "a picture is worth a thousand words"!

Let´s hope the French ladies´ win the Gold medal, Gromit! Will the average be 2000 then, do you think?

Regarding Marseille, is that not the home of "les Ultras" fans? What would the equivalent be for a ladies´ team? Would one think one had stumbled into a Femen-demonstration?

I have to do a bit of research to find historical figures for Sweden (maybe someone can help us?) but so far this season there has been one match with 3125 spectators, and another seven matches with >2000 spectators. This is out of 70 played matches.  The 3125 match was at Umeå when Tyresö (for whom Marta now plays) visited, so it was probably a desire to see their former player that helped the attendance.

Maybe Marseille should sign Mlles Wambach and Kumagai, and leave Mlle Necib in Paris?

Gromit said:

I can bring you a bit of an answer, old pal, while eating Swedish Wasa bread (hmm... can we call that "bread" ?) with a good piece of Sbrinz, thanks to CHR$'s blog "Ni buts, ni soumises".

 

This season, the global attendances was three times what it was in 2010. Of course, it varies a lot from a match to another. In 2010, the record was PSG-Juvisy at the Parc des Princes with nearly 6 000 people.

This year, a dozen of matches had seen more than 2000 people (Cup included). If you take the last decade before this year, you will find only five matches reaching this peak. So, we really can speak of an serious improvement.

The fact that the male professional stadiums are more commonly used helps a lot.

This is the compilation of the 10 best attendances in national competition :

D1 2011-2012  Guingamp : Guingamp-Lyon - 12 263

Coupe de France 2011-2012 Bourges :   Montpellier-Lyon - 7 200

D1 2011-2012  Bondoufle : Juvisy-Lyon - 7 000

D1 2009-2010  Paris (Parc des Princes) : PSG-Juvisy  - 5 892

CdF 2008-2009 Lyon : Le Mans-Montpellier - 4 671

D1 2011-2012   Lyon : Lyon-PSG  - 4 500

CdF 2009-2010 Bondoufle : PSG-Montpellier - 4 200

D1 2011-2012  Créteil : PSG-Lyon - 3 500

D1 2011-2012     Lyon : Lyon-Juvisy - 3 434

Of course, Lyon is a regular attraction but not so much if you compare with the attendances in French male football in which Marseille (OM) has not only all the best crowds at home (not this year since the stadium is in refection with a reduced capacity) but always away. Marseille supporters travel a lot and there are OM's club of supporters absolutely everywhere in France (L'OM has been the most popular club in France for more than 20 years, even during the long reign of 7 years of Lyon which never succeeded in becoming a popular team in the rest of France).

I suppose that when Marseille feminine football section will reach the first league (at the end of nex year ?), it can change a lot of things. Wait and see... particularly if Louisa Necib could have the good idea to go back and play for her birth-city place...

Here is a very interesting chart with the attendances average in French championship since 2004. Yes, I put it at the end on purpose, just to check if you read this post till the end ; )

Lars Breimer said:

What are the figures for French teams?  Do you know?

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